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  #1  
Old 12-01-2017, 08:42 AM
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HAZE HAZE is offline
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ST5/TT5 - who's in?

The rules for st5/tt5 are out, anyone plan on running in 2018?
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  #2  
Old 12-01-2017, 11:59 AM
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Arca_ex Arca_ex is offline
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I was pretty interested in this class and had been looking forward to it for a long time to maybe come back out, but after the rules came out not so much.

The tire rules were made to go after the 205 Hoosier on 9" wide wheel that is really common for Miatas (I would have to buy smaller wheels, all I own are 9") and I feel like the penalty for having A-arm suspension is pretty hefty. I guess when you add power to go to ST4 and above then it's not an advantage anymore? Seems like BMW's do alright for themselves in those classes.

The chassis to have seems like it would be a 4 door McStrut BMW.



Short recap of mod factors and link to rules for anyone else reading:

https://nasaproracing.com/rules/supe...ng_5_rules.pdf

Competition Weight:
Less than:
2850 lbs = -0.1
2650 lbs = -0.2
2550 lbs = -0.3
2450 lbs = -0.4
2250 lbs = -0.5
2150 lbs = -0.6

Greater than:
3300 lbs = +0.1
3400 lbs = +0.2
3500 lbs = +0.3
3600 lbs = +0.4

Tires:
Non-R Compound with UTQG Treadwear rating 200 or greater = +0.3

Brakes:
Non-OEM, modified or relocated brake calipers/brackets
or rotor diameter = -0.2

Suspension:
Suspension design utilizing upper “A-arm” or “wishbone”
type control arms (front or rear) = -0.7

Replace, modify, or remove control arms, camber arms/links,
toe arms/links = -0.5

Add, replace, or modify a Watts link, Panhard Rod, or Torque Arm = -0.5

Non-OEM metallic and/or spherical design replacement suspension
bushing modifications on control/camber/toe arms/links,
panhard rods, watts links, and torque arms = -0.2

Non-OEM shocks/struts with an external reservoir (or piggyback)
OR with shaft diameter 40mm or greater = -0.7

Increase in track width greater than four (4) inches = -0.7


Chassis:
OEM Body Type 4-door Sedan or 5-door Wagon originally
manufactured as a Production vehicle = +0.2

One or more cage bars that penetrate the front bulkhead/firewall = -0.3

Body:
Single, Flat, Horizontal Front Splitter (no greater than 4”) = -0.5

BTM Aero (see 6.1.4) = +0.4

Modification of the OEM roof line/shape and/or
windshield/frame removal (convertibles only) = -0.4

Modification of the floor pan for exhaust clearance only and/or
the rocker panel for side exit exhaust only = -0.2

Transmission:
OEM street-legal model available paddle shift/DCT/SMG
or sequential motorcycle gearbox = -0.3

(All classes—no assessment for automatic utilizing torque converter)
Drivetrain: AWD = -0.5

FWD = +0.6

Rear-Mid or Rear engine layout (not Front-Mid) = -0.4
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1994 Mazda Miata #883 PTE/TTE
WHP East - 1:04 - TTE Record
WHP West CW - 1:07 - TTE Record
WHP West CCW - 1:06 - TTE Record
WHP Main (Pro) - 1:17
WHP Main (NASA) - 1:10
WHP Main (Safe) - 1:12
WHP Mondo - 2:13
Inde Cfg. 4 - 1:49
Inde Cfg. 5 - 2:04
Inde Cfg. 6 - 1:52
Chuck CW - 2:07 - TTE Record
Chuck CCW - 2:06
AMP - 1:53 - TTE Record
AutoClub - 2:03
P1 Circuit CW - 1:00
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  #3  
Old 12-02-2017, 12:15 PM
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HAZE HAZE is offline
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So the 205/50 Hoosier on a 9" wheel is over the 226mm limit? Would it work on an 8" wheel?

What if u added ballast to 2400lb so u can use 257mm? Or would that require power/$$ ?

If new wheels are the only thing you need, then that's not too much of an investment. You gotta admit that "205" tire is pretty ridiculous. I'm glad they're finally addressing the huge variance of actual widths.
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Old 12-02-2017, 09:34 PM
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Arca_ex Arca_ex is offline
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205 on 8" is pretty much exactly the limit. It's so borderline that it needs to be tested with an "official" tool to find out.

Can't make enough power if ballasting up.

Currently have 3 sets of 9" wheels. Sold off all my 8" wheels lol.
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Aaron Hiar
Higher Media & Race Factory
1994 Mazda Miata #883 PTE/TTE
WHP East - 1:04 - TTE Record
WHP West CW - 1:07 - TTE Record
WHP West CCW - 1:06 - TTE Record
WHP Main (Pro) - 1:17
WHP Main (NASA) - 1:10
WHP Main (Safe) - 1:12
WHP Mondo - 2:13
Inde Cfg. 4 - 1:49
Inde Cfg. 5 - 2:04
Inde Cfg. 6 - 1:52
Chuck CW - 2:07 - TTE Record
Chuck CCW - 2:06
AMP - 1:53 - TTE Record
AutoClub - 2:03
P1 Circuit CW - 1:00
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  #5  
Old 12-28-2017, 03:47 PM
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94TegLS@MSC 94TegLS@MSC is offline
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Was trying convince my co-workers to jump into this class next year but after reading the rules they may not be able to and be competitive yet.

Co-worker 1: BMW E36 coupe has external reservoir coilovers going on that come with a .7 power to weight hit. Not a terrible option for TT5 but right out of the gate gets a big penalty because he has off the shelf Taiwan coilovers -__-

Co-worker 2: 90's Honda hatch gets penalized because of having double wishbone suspension. Also has camber kits which you need on a 90's Honda which is .5 power to weight hit so it's already handicapped with a 1.2 power to weight hit.

Co-worker 3: Mazda RX8 gets a double handicap with double wishbone suspension and external resevoir coilovers for a grand total of 1.5 power to weight hit.

TT5 sounded like a great option but the .7 power to weight hit for just having a car with double wishbone seems extreme. McPherson strut cars can be made to work as well with the right setup and I can see cars sweeping naionals with Mcpherson suspension, custom built single canister coilovers, total weight of 2,800 to run widest possible tire. I think some changes need to come in the future, .7 power to weight hit is huge.
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Last edited by 94TegLS@MSC; 12-29-2017 at 11:45 AM.
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  #6  
Old 12-29-2017, 09:12 AM
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Tage Tage is offline
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I think if you change your perspective, it could change the way you look at the class from "getting screwed" to leveling the playing field. Would it make people feel better if:

1. NON-external reservoir shocks getting to run more power? Granted if your co-worker bought some cheap coilovers and really isn't getting the benefit of a superior shock over "normal" shocks that is a different story.

2. Allowing double wishbone suspension with no penalty but then allowing non-double wishbone cars to run more power? I would also disagree completely with a 90's Honda "requiring" camber kits. Those cars gain massive negative camber when lowered and don't need it. I removed the camber kit from my 95 Honda Accord as I wasn't willing to take the hit before ST/TT5 was around and didn't make much difference. If he added the kit to REDUCE camber, then simply remove them for the events (once a month - big deal!) and then put them back on after the event to save on tire wear. I personally just left my car as-is with ~3 degrees negative camber (with 0" toe) and surprisingly my street tires didn't really show much inside tire wear. When I drove the car a lot on the street I would get ~20K miles. My BMW has a lot of negative camber as well and those have 12K miles now. The point is, negative camber doesn't wear the inside of the tire as much as you would think so a camber kit is NOT needed. A camber kit *is* needed to ADD additional negative camber, but double wishbone Honda's (even from the 90s) get plenty using all stock parts.

3. FWD cars definitely don't get screwed. They get a huge advantage in regards to the power to weight they get to run compared to AWD and RWD.


Suggestions to make it sound appealing:

Co-worker #1 - have him sell or trade his external reservoir shocks for good regular shocks and for all we know he might even gain some performance and no longer be "screwed".

Co-worker #2 - has an advantage out of the gates because he is FWD. Have him get rid of the camber kit and he's at pretty close to a break even deal if you want to look at it that way.

Co-worker #3 - have him do the same as #1.

Without any changes to any of their cars, I suspect if all cars were close to the limit of their power to weight, I bet the same driver would run pretty darn close to the same times. If they all did my suggestions above, I bet they would all still run the same times and all be competitive with the best in that class.

The point of the rules is to level the playing field so that more cars can compete, vs forcing everyone to have to buy a specific car to win a specific class. Some of the rules are annoying to me as well and it's very possible they are off on some of the adjustment factors, but like anything those will be fine tuned over time to further make things more fair.
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